‘10 thousand Catalans to Brussels’ with Professor Enric I. Canela
To listen the interview click in this link http://webcast.deumil.cat/
In just a few days time, on the 7th of March, Catalonia, a stateless nation in the heart of Europe, is ready to march to Brussels in a gesture to show its determination for Independence. ´Ten thousand Catalans to Brussels`, is the name given to this iniciative, borned from the very social fabric of Catalunya. Today we ask professor Enric I. Canela, head of the BioChemistry and Molecular Biology at the University of Barcelona, and one of the main figures behind this social movement, why is that Catalans feel the need to be marching to Brussels and what is that europeans, and other citiziens of the world, can do to support their right to decide their own fate.
1. Interviewer: 10,000 Catalans marching into Brussels are a lot of people. This initiative must therefore have a lot of support. What is going on in Catalonia?
1. Enric I. Canela: Catalonia has always been a different nation to the country of Spain and that’s the reason why we have so many different traits. A recent illustration of the Spanish fixation for not letting Catalonia live fruitfully within her rights is back in 1981 when a coup was attempted by the Spanish military, led by a follower of the deceased dictator Franco. At that time, it was the beginning of the Spanish democracy and the coup was a reaction to talks that were taking place between Catalonia and Spain to develop the idea of a co federation status, a dual power status between Catalonia and Spain. Step by step, as years have passed, we’ve come to realise that this will never be possible and so in 2005 the Catalan Parliament approved the Catalan Estatut, a type of constitution but this has been completely dismissed by the Spanish Government and will shortly be sentenced by the Spanish Courts to mean nothing at all. All of this has driven Catalan people to say enough is enough and our frustration is now manifesting itself in very clear ways, louder than ever before. Now the determination for independence from Spain is getting very alive and strong.
2. What type of people supports the independence? Which type of people would come to Brussels on 7 March?
2. I think if we consider the people that have joined this manifestation so far, we can safely say that they come from all corners of Catalonia and all walks of life. We have business people, professionals like doctors, lawyers, we have workers, butchers, the young, the elderly. Just people who feel that the independence of Catalonia is the only way for our people, for our culture.
The march is not branded by any political party but we have received the support of individuals from all of the nationalist political parties of the country.
3. What would your ideal outcome of the march be?
3. We have 2 objectives. That Europe, the world, acknowledge that in Catalonia we live in conflict, not armed conflict perhaps but none the less we live in constant conflict. So we aim for the internationalisation of the conflict, we want the media, the politicians, the citizens of Europe in general, to acknowledge what is happening here in Catalonia, on their doorstep. Following from that, getting the conflict out in the open, we wish to ensure that the local Catalan politicians have to consider that a great number of people are now demanding the final independence of Catalonia. We want to force them to take this into account and make it become a political reality and in doing so therefore, the Spanish politicians will have to end up negotiating on the conflict, instead of simply ignoring it for their own benefit.
4. Do you hope for European understanding? Is it not enough that we all are just Europeans? Why do you need a strong nationalist?
4. We Catalans have great tradition. First of all Catalonia has a culture, a language that are as distinct and unique and different as all of the other different European languages. We’ve maintained it and preserved it for centuries. It’s worth considering that Catalonia had the first European Parliament, even before the English, which was the cradle of all of the European democracies that we have today. Therefore we have a great tradition of being a fully functioning and distinctive nation and a political state by itself that goes back as far as the 8th Century and the legacy of Charles the Great. This capacity that we have for self government has been maintained for all of those centuries right up to the configuration of the Spanish co federation at the beginning of modern times. We Catalans have been subject to endless wars in which we have regularly been defeated by a larger army but we have to understand here that there’s not always been a united nations, historically the bigger the territory, the bigger the army and as a result of these defeats we’ve had our culture persecuted and our language banned. In recent times this persecution peaked after the Spanish Civil War when all the Catalan bodies of governments and the Catalan Republic were dissolved by Franco. Franco, the fascist dictator, winner of the Spanish Civil War, maintained a very tight alliance with Hitler and Mussolini and they and their fascist agenda stepped over Catalonian free doers and restarted heavy persecutions. Finally, when the dictator died and democracy arrived to Spain in 1975, there was created a constitution where Catalonia once again aspired to establish a bi-lateral power status on the form of a cofederation but again little by little the situation eroded as I explained earlier. We have the right to protect our language, which now, although spoken by 7 million people which is many more than some other recognised European languages, Catalan is still considered a second class language. In order for us to maintain our different traits, our culture as a nation, we need our own state.
5. Professor Canela, what would you say to a European citizen, Finnish for example, or an Austrian person, who is not aware of your conflict and therefore indifferent towards your cause?
5. Maybe I would turn my thoughts to the history of the Nordic countries for example and how the Swedish crown established a separation of the Nordic states in order to preserve each of their own different national identities, leading to what we now know as the modern Scandinavia. Or I would recall how Czechoslovakia, via a mutual understanding created 2 different independent republics, the Czech Republic and Slovakia. The first reasons for Europe to exist is to be the people’s Europe. The Europe of the states has no future because it will only represent the interests of those with enough power to pressure, they will not represent the real needs of the European citizens. By helping to protect the rights of other European countries, you ensure your own rights are protected. Europe’s great strength has always been in its cultural diversity and the innovation and the creativity that it generates. The greater number of strong and independent European cultures that are allowed to flourish, the better.
6. Catalans have a long history fighting for their freedom, why are you still part of Spain? Which are the main reasons?
6. There are mainly 2 reasons. Firstly, prior to globalisation, it was in the economical interests of the elite within Spain to maintain the Spanish internal market and here therefore there was always this terrible fear of losing the privileges if Catalonia and its citizens stopped being part of this market. Secondly, there are the continuous wars that we’ve been engaged in fighting to defend ourselves since the 17th Century. Wars that we have unfortunately lost because of more formidable powers to our borders. Portugal for example, only got the chance to be independent because Spain chose to direct its fighting efforts towards keeping hold of Catalonia instead of fighting on both fronts. Following all these centuries of battle and struggle, suffering and resistance against this aggressive attitude towards Catalonia, we arrived to modern times and the fascist alliance of Franco, Hitler and Mussolini which as you may imagine made very harsh times for our people. The guns have always been the method to keep us but in the end all these forced relationships have to end up breaking.
7. What disadvantages do Catalan people experience every day as a result of being under Spanish rule?
7. One of it is economical. Catalonia has always been by far the most developed region in the Iberic peninsula, that the wealth that Catalonia generates is unfairly distributed among the less productive territories of Spain and as such Catalan citizens actually end up receiving less benefit than the citizens of the regions which don’t produce nearly as much and that’s a well known fact.
What problems does this produce? Well if Catalonia doesn’t have enough resources to reinvest, we lose the capacity for development. In practical terms what this means for example, is that Catalonian citizens have more problems to have schools and hospitals compared with other regions, when it is in Catalonia where the vast majority of the resources are generated. Another clear example, one that I know very well as a professor of a university, universities in Catalonia are run by the university rules that the Spanish Central Government decides. These rules prevent our productive development. Right now for example, all of Europe is working towards a standard for higher education. Europe has decided for a 3 year bachelor course. Spain have not. They’ve decided on a 4 year bachelor course. Catalans can’t do anything about that and the homogenisation of our students with other European students is now in jeopardy. We don’t have either the flexibility to decide upon salaries in order to attract and hire professors or researchers coming from other countries. We can’t develop our own research centres without the resources that have been taken from us by the Spanish Government. As you can imagine it’s a very frustrating and very difficult situation. We can’t attend to the migration from other countries because it is an area managed by the Spanish Government. In reality, in practical terms, we cannot do anything without the permission or without a law that is for all of the rest of the Spanish territories that does not take into consideration the possibility of differences in needs. This generates situations which makes us lose competitiveness, resources, capacity for reaction, capacity for development etc.
8. How is it that there is still such national identity, what do you attribute with that to?
8. When transportation was slower and less available, language was a natural frontier and as any other European nation that has had a language develop in a different way to another, it creates a community that holds different traits to another. Catalonia has always been a land of passing for many different cultures which impacted upon our own. Meanwhile in other areas of the interior of the Iberic peninsula this didn’t happen. All of this created the very different culture, the more European facing culture that is the Catalan culture that we have today. However, these days the problem arises when Catalonia media is under a constant submission to the vast quantities of Spanish media, TV, news etc. Because language is so important and the Spanish nationalism is very active with lots of means at its disposal, we find ourselves empty handed in order to prevent the slow erosion of our culture. With globalisation, it’s only these natural frontiers, like language, that can assure the survival of one’s own culture. Therefore, now more than ever, we need the right to promote our own identity.
9. Catalonians have made a lot of progress on their own, without external help already. For example Catalan is a language used to teach in all schools in Catalonia. Recently the Spanish Police (Guardia Civil) have been removed. So why is total independence still so important?
9. To keep the language and the culture. Yes the school system is in Catalan but it’s also true that these days we find ourselves in a very different situation than a few years ago. Although Catalan is spoken in the schools, Spanish is increasingly the language on the street due to massive immigration which is mainly coming from South America. This is a phenomena that a few years ago we didn’t have and it’s a very serious problem for the continuity of our language unless we can create and regulate the mechanism that could guarantee the survival of our language. This is a problem that immigration does not cause in countries who are in charge of their own language of course. It is totally impossible that with a system as the one that we have today working within the Spanish state, that Catalonia can keep on being innovative, that we can keep on attracting foreign capital and have the position to be a decision-making centre. This is progressively more and more difficult because the tension that Madrid provocates is enormous. If Catalonia is to be a developed country in the next 25 years it is a prerequisite that we must have our own state.
10. So why does Spain not give you the independence?
10. The departure of Catalonia would mean a decrease in the capacity for other parts of Spain to develop, in the way that we are a factory, the benefits of which are pocketed on other territories by other people. I’ll give you an example. Catalonia had 2 robust, very important electric companies. These 2 electric companies were simply taken by the Spanish Government, made into one, which was then headquartered in Madrid. A company headquartered in Madrid, who had all its clients in Catalonia. This doesn’t make any sense at all. The national spirit of the Spanish Government is very strong. Another example happened in the País Basc with one of their main banks. The Spanish simply proceeded to join it with a Spanish bank and again headquartered the bank in Madrid when it had been traditionally a Basc bank. I mean it’s like a genetic sense of possession which makes it unavoidable that these strong tensions arise. Spain will never, without external pressure, accept our independence.
11. Why can’t this go to referendum amongst the people in Catalonia?
11. Because of a very easy legal reason. Referendums can only be authorised by the Spanish central power and it’s the Spanish state who end up deciding what is that Catalonia wants to be.
What it is that Catalonia has the right to be can only be decided by the whole Spanish state, by the opinion formulated by all the citizens of all the Spanish territories. The right to decide is not a right owned by the Catalans. The Spanish as a whole will never accept in any way shape or form that Catalans could express their desire by referendum. It’s a question of saying, we have the capacity to decide if you guys can make a referendum and we just don’t want to let you. Plain and simple.
12. And finally Professor Canella, what could the European citizen who agrees with your right to freedom, do to help?
12. Well it helps that people just understand what is the situation that Catalans live under. In
Canada, in Quebec where French is spoken, Quebec can call a referendum in which the people of Quebec can decide if they wish to be independent or not and the French citizens are absolutely in agreement with that right. Are the French citizens in agreement that a referendum could be held in Catalonia? Why is one different than the other? There they speak French regardless that the rest of Canada speak English. So why can the same reasoning not be applied here in Catalonia. We therefore simply ask for the support of the European citizens for us to be allowed to hold a referendum. We don’t ask for them to decide if Catalonia has to be independent or not, we are only asking for European citizens to agree with the fact that the people of Catalonia, should be allowed to decide for themselves, if they want their nation to be independent or not.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Thank you very much.
For any comments or feedback please do not hesitate to contact us at,
To listen the interview click in this link http://webcast.deumil.cat/
In just a few days time, on the 7th of March, Catalonia, a stateless nation in the heart of Europe, is ready to march to Brussels in a gesture to show its determination for Independence. ´Ten thousand Catalans to Brussels`, is the name given to this iniciative, borned from the very social fabric of Catalunya. Today we ask professor Enric I. Canela, head of the BioChemistry and Molecular Biology at the University of Barcelona, and one of the main figures behind this social movement, why is that Catalans feel the need to be marching to Brussels and what is that europeans, and other citiziens of the world, can do to support their right to decide their own fate.
1. Interviewer: 10,000 Catalans marching into Brussels are a lot of people. This initiative must therefore have a lot of support. What is going on in Catalonia?
1. Enric I. Canela: Catalonia has always been a different nation to the country of Spain and that’s the reason why we have so many different traits. A recent illustration of the Spanish fixation for not letting Catalonia live fruitfully within her rights is back in 1981 when a coup was attempted by the Spanish military, led by a follower of the deceased dictator Franco. At that time, it was the beginning of the Spanish democracy and the coup was a reaction to talks that were taking place between Catalonia and Spain to develop the idea of a co federation status, a dual power status between Catalonia and Spain. Step by step, as years have passed, we’ve come to realise that this will never be possible and so in 2005 the Catalan Parliament approved the Catalan Estatut, a type of constitution but this has been completely dismissed by the Spanish Government and will shortly be sentenced by the Spanish Courts to mean nothing at all. All of this has driven Catalan people to say enough is enough and our frustration is now manifesting itself in very clear ways, louder than ever before. Now the determination for independence from Spain is getting very alive and strong.
2. What type of people supports the independence? Which type of people would come to Brussels on 7 March?
2. I think if we consider the people that have joined this manifestation so far, we can safely say that they come from all corners of Catalonia and all walks of life. We have business people, professionals like doctors, lawyers, we have workers, butchers, the young, the elderly. Just people who feel that the independence of Catalonia is the only way for our people, for our culture.
The march is not branded by any political party but we have received the support of individuals from all of the nationalist political parties of the country.
3. What would your ideal outcome of the march be?
3. We have 2 objectives. That Europe, the world, acknowledge that in Catalonia we live in conflict, not armed conflict perhaps but none the less we live in constant conflict. So we aim for the internationalisation of the conflict, we want the media, the politicians, the citizens of Europe in general, to acknowledge what is happening here in Catalonia, on their doorstep. Following from that, getting the conflict out in the open, we wish to ensure that the local Catalan politicians have to consider that a great number of people are now demanding the final independence of Catalonia. We want to force them to take this into account and make it become a political reality and in doing so therefore, the Spanish politicians will have to end up negotiating on the conflict, instead of simply ignoring it for their own benefit.
4. Do you hope for European understanding? Is it not enough that we all are just Europeans? Why do you need a strong nationalist?
4. We Catalans have great tradition. First of all Catalonia has a culture, a language that are as distinct and unique and different as all of the other different European languages. We’ve maintained it and preserved it for centuries. It’s worth considering that Catalonia had the first European Parliament, even before the English, which was the cradle of all of the European democracies that we have today. Therefore we have a great tradition of being a fully functioning and distinctive nation and a political state by itself that goes back as far as the 8th Century and the legacy of Charles the Great. This capacity that we have for self government has been maintained for all of those centuries right up to the configuration of the Spanish co federation at the beginning of modern times. We Catalans have been subject to endless wars in which we have regularly been defeated by a larger army but we have to understand here that there’s not always been a united nations, historically the bigger the territory, the bigger the army and as a result of these defeats we’ve had our culture persecuted and our language banned. In recent times this persecution peaked after the Spanish Civil War when all the Catalan bodies of governments and the Catalan Republic were dissolved by Franco. Franco, the fascist dictator, winner of the Spanish Civil War, maintained a very tight alliance with Hitler and Mussolini and they and their fascist agenda stepped over Catalonian free doers and restarted heavy persecutions. Finally, when the dictator died and democracy arrived to Spain in 1975, there was created a constitution where Catalonia once again aspired to establish a bi-lateral power status on the form of a cofederation but again little by little the situation eroded as I explained earlier. We have the right to protect our language, which now, although spoken by 7 million people which is many more than some other recognised European languages, Catalan is still considered a second class language. In order for us to maintain our different traits, our culture as a nation, we need our own state.
5. Professor Canela, what would you say to a European citizen, Finnish for example, or an Austrian person, who is not aware of your conflict and therefore indifferent towards your cause?
5. Maybe I would turn my thoughts to the history of the Nordic countries for example and how the Swedish crown established a separation of the Nordic states in order to preserve each of their own different national identities, leading to what we now know as the modern Scandinavia. Or I would recall how Czechoslovakia, via a mutual understanding created 2 different independent republics, the Czech Republic and Slovakia. The first reasons for Europe to exist is to be the people’s Europe. The Europe of the states has no future because it will only represent the interests of those with enough power to pressure, they will not represent the real needs of the European citizens. By helping to protect the rights of other European countries, you ensure your own rights are protected. Europe’s great strength has always been in its cultural diversity and the innovation and the creativity that it generates. The greater number of strong and independent European cultures that are allowed to flourish, the better.
6. Catalans have a long history fighting for their freedom, why are you still part of Spain? Which are the main reasons?
6. There are mainly 2 reasons. Firstly, prior to globalisation, it was in the economical interests of the elite within Spain to maintain the Spanish internal market and here therefore there was always this terrible fear of losing the privileges if Catalonia and its citizens stopped being part of this market. Secondly, there are the continuous wars that we’ve been engaged in fighting to defend ourselves since the 17th Century. Wars that we have unfortunately lost because of more formidable powers to our borders. Portugal for example, only got the chance to be independent because Spain chose to direct its fighting efforts towards keeping hold of Catalonia instead of fighting on both fronts. Following all these centuries of battle and struggle, suffering and resistance against this aggressive attitude towards Catalonia, we arrived to modern times and the fascist alliance of Franco, Hitler and Mussolini which as you may imagine made very harsh times for our people. The guns have always been the method to keep us but in the end all these forced relationships have to end up breaking.
7. What disadvantages do Catalan people experience every day as a result of being under Spanish rule?
7. One of it is economical. Catalonia has always been by far the most developed region in the Iberic peninsula, that the wealth that Catalonia generates is unfairly distributed among the less productive territories of Spain and as such Catalan citizens actually end up receiving less benefit than the citizens of the regions which don’t produce nearly as much and that’s a well known fact.
What problems does this produce? Well if Catalonia doesn’t have enough resources to reinvest, we lose the capacity for development. In practical terms what this means for example, is that Catalonian citizens have more problems to have schools and hospitals compared with other regions, when it is in Catalonia where the vast majority of the resources are generated. Another clear example, one that I know very well as a professor of a university, universities in Catalonia are run by the university rules that the Spanish Central Government decides. These rules prevent our productive development. Right now for example, all of Europe is working towards a standard for higher education. Europe has decided for a 3 year bachelor course. Spain have not. They’ve decided on a 4 year bachelor course. Catalans can’t do anything about that and the homogenisation of our students with other European students is now in jeopardy. We don’t have either the flexibility to decide upon salaries in order to attract and hire professors or researchers coming from other countries. We can’t develop our own research centres without the resources that have been taken from us by the Spanish Government. As you can imagine it’s a very frustrating and very difficult situation. We can’t attend to the migration from other countries because it is an area managed by the Spanish Government. In reality, in practical terms, we cannot do anything without the permission or without a law that is for all of the rest of the Spanish territories that does not take into consideration the possibility of differences in needs. This generates situations which makes us lose competitiveness, resources, capacity for reaction, capacity for development etc.
8. How is it that there is still such national identity, what do you attribute with that to?
8. When transportation was slower and less available, language was a natural frontier and as any other European nation that has had a language develop in a different way to another, it creates a community that holds different traits to another. Catalonia has always been a land of passing for many different cultures which impacted upon our own. Meanwhile in other areas of the interior of the Iberic peninsula this didn’t happen. All of this created the very different culture, the more European facing culture that is the Catalan culture that we have today. However, these days the problem arises when Catalonia media is under a constant submission to the vast quantities of Spanish media, TV, news etc. Because language is so important and the Spanish nationalism is very active with lots of means at its disposal, we find ourselves empty handed in order to prevent the slow erosion of our culture. With globalisation, it’s only these natural frontiers, like language, that can assure the survival of one’s own culture. Therefore, now more than ever, we need the right to promote our own identity.
9. Catalonians have made a lot of progress on their own, without external help already. For example Catalan is a language used to teach in all schools in Catalonia. Recently the Spanish Police (Guardia Civil) have been removed. So why is total independence still so important?
9. To keep the language and the culture. Yes the school system is in Catalan but it’s also true that these days we find ourselves in a very different situation than a few years ago. Although Catalan is spoken in the schools, Spanish is increasingly the language on the street due to massive immigration which is mainly coming from South America. This is a phenomena that a few years ago we didn’t have and it’s a very serious problem for the continuity of our language unless we can create and regulate the mechanism that could guarantee the survival of our language. This is a problem that immigration does not cause in countries who are in charge of their own language of course. It is totally impossible that with a system as the one that we have today working within the Spanish state, that Catalonia can keep on being innovative, that we can keep on attracting foreign capital and have the position to be a decision-making centre. This is progressively more and more difficult because the tension that Madrid provocates is enormous. If Catalonia is to be a developed country in the next 25 years it is a prerequisite that we must have our own state.
10. So why does Spain not give you the independence?
10. The departure of Catalonia would mean a decrease in the capacity for other parts of Spain to develop, in the way that we are a factory, the benefits of which are pocketed on other territories by other people. I’ll give you an example. Catalonia had 2 robust, very important electric companies. These 2 electric companies were simply taken by the Spanish Government, made into one, which was then headquartered in Madrid. A company headquartered in Madrid, who had all its clients in Catalonia. This doesn’t make any sense at all. The national spirit of the Spanish Government is very strong. Another example happened in the País Basc with one of their main banks. The Spanish simply proceeded to join it with a Spanish bank and again headquartered the bank in Madrid when it had been traditionally a Basc bank. I mean it’s like a genetic sense of possession which makes it unavoidable that these strong tensions arise. Spain will never, without external pressure, accept our independence.
11. Why can’t this go to referendum amongst the people in Catalonia?
11. Because of a very easy legal reason. Referendums can only be authorised by the Spanish central power and it’s the Spanish state who end up deciding what is that Catalonia wants to be.
What it is that Catalonia has the right to be can only be decided by the whole Spanish state, by the opinion formulated by all the citizens of all the Spanish territories. The right to decide is not a right owned by the Catalans. The Spanish as a whole will never accept in any way shape or form that Catalans could express their desire by referendum. It’s a question of saying, we have the capacity to decide if you guys can make a referendum and we just don’t want to let you. Plain and simple.
12. And finally Professor Canella, what could the European citizen who agrees with your right to freedom, do to help?
12. Well it helps that people just understand what is the situation that Catalans live under. In
Canada, in Quebec where French is spoken, Quebec can call a referendum in which the people of Quebec can decide if they wish to be independent or not and the French citizens are absolutely in agreement with that right. Are the French citizens in agreement that a referendum could be held in Catalonia? Why is one different than the other? There they speak French regardless that the rest of Canada speak English. So why can the same reasoning not be applied here in Catalonia. We therefore simply ask for the support of the European citizens for us to be allowed to hold a referendum. We don’t ask for them to decide if Catalonia has to be independent or not, we are only asking for European citizens to agree with the fact that the people of Catalonia, should be allowed to decide for themselves, if they want their nation to be independent or not.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Thank you very much.
For any comments or feedback please do not hesitate to contact us at,
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